| 1.2.4.4  But he doesn't need to say it Mr. J., you say: "Does Jesus say, 'I am 
                God'? No." I am glad we agree. "...because that would 
                have been misunderstood. Jesus is not the Father (as it would 
                have been thought), Jesus is the Son." What?, are you 
                claiming that Jesus is incapable when telling his disciples 
                "worship the Father" to add the words "...and the Son"? Are you 
                claiming that the people he is talking to are incapable of 
                comprehending that one is the father and the other is the son? 
                Would you have us believe that his twelve apostles were so dense 
                that they could not comprehend the difference between a "father" 
                and a "son"? Are there no words in his language to say "I am not 
                God but His son, worship both of us"? When you 
                claim that Jesus (pbuh) died on the cross, do you 
                misunderstand this to mean that God the "Father" is the one who 
                died on the cross? When you claim that Jesus was "begotten" by 
                God, do you misunderstand this to mean that Jesus begat the 
                Father? Are Jesus' twelve hand-picked apostles truly in you 
                estimation so backward and dense? This is not how Muslims regard 
                them. With regard to the miracles of Jesus being 
                proof of his Godhead please read my comments about other 
                prophets and their miracles (Section 2.2.3). What you appear to be trying to say is that 
                the fact that Jesus never told anyone to worship him nor claimed 
                to be God but left it up to them to surmise by themselves is 
                proof that he wanted them to worship him? God must command us to 
                worship him, and Jesus must command us to worship God, but Jesus 
                (pbuh) receives worship "without censure" without asking 
                for it? Why then is the same not true for God Himself? Why did 
                God Himself not simply remain quiet (like Jesus) and expect us 
                to "gather" and "observe" that He wishes us to worship Him. Why 
                does God Himself not receive "without censure" worship 
                until He asks for it? Why? With regard to the opening verses of John, 
                they have already been dealt with in detail. Jesus (pbuh) never in his lifetime told anyone 
                to worship him. It was others who did that. Quite the contrary, 
                whenever Jesus (pbuh) spoke of worship, he always attributed it 
                to God and never himself: "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy 
                God, and him only shalt thou serve" Luke 4:8. Notice 
                the words: "Him ONLY." Jesus did not say "US only," or 
                "Him and I only." How could he possibly make it more clear than 
                that? What abstract meaning are we now going to concoct for this 
                verse to show that what Jesus "really" meant was "worship 
                BOTH of us"?  The problem with many apologists is that they 
                "interpret" the words "he" and "him" to mean "we" and "us" when 
                it suits them, and to mean "he" and "him" only when it suits 
                them. In cases such as Luke 4:8, they claim that "him" really 
                means "us." But in cases where God "begets" Jesus, or where God 
                "sacrifices" Jesus, "him" and "he" is God alone and does 
                not mean "us" and "we." Notice the trend ? But there is more:  
                  "Jesus saith unto her, ... worship 
                  the Father"John 4:2.
                  "But the hour cometh, and now is, when 
                  the true worshippers shall worship the Father in 
                  spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship 
                  HIM" John 4:23. Notice: "worship the 
                  FATHER," not "worship the Father AND THE SON." Also notice: 
                  "worship HIM" not "worship US" or "worship ME." "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, 
                  Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that 
                  doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."Matthew 7:21. "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love 
                  the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, 
                  and with all thy mind."Matthew 22:37.  Strangely enough, even though Jesus is 
                regarded as the "incarnation" of God, and 
                wholly equal to God in every respect, and all three are "one" 
                God, still, no one has ever gone on and attempted to explain if 
                this is so why Jesus would then need to pray, let alone to his 
                own self: 
                  "And he (Jesus) went a little further, 
                  and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it 
                  be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I 
                  will but as thou [wilt]."Matthew 26:39"He (Jesus) went away again the second 
                  time, and prayed (to another side of his 'triune' self?), 
                  saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, 
                  except I drink it, thy will be done."Matthew 26:42"And he (Jesus) left them, and went away 
                  again, and prayed (to whom? To himself?) the third time, 
                  saying the same words."Matthew 26:44"And in the morning, rising up a great 
                  while before day, he (Jesus) went out, and departed into a 
                  solitary place, and there prayed."Mark 1:35"And he (Jesus) went forward a little, 
                  and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, 
                  the hour might pass from him."Mark 14:35"And again he (Jesus) went away, and 
                  prayed, and spake the same words."Mark 14:39"And he (Jesus) withdrew himself into 
                  the wilderness, and prayed." Luke 5:16"And he (Jesus) was withdrawn from them 
                  about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,"Luke 22:41 etc. If Jesus (pbuh) "is" God, and if both are 
                different names for one "triune" God, and if all three "persons" 
                are "co-equal, co-eternal, and consubstantial," then is Jesus 
                praying to himself? Is he praying to another side of his own 
                personality? Is he praying to his own essence? Why? Why does the 
                "incarnation" of God need to pray, beseech, 
                sweat, and plead with his own essence? If I have both a father 
                and a number of sons, then can my "fatherly" nature plead with 
                my "sonly" nature to save it from danger? Why? For what purpose? "Many will say to me (Jesus) in that day, 
                Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name 
                have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 
                And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from 
                me, ye that work iniquity."  Matthew 7:22 Table of Contents |
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